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By the end of 2018 S1, VRS Datapacks for GT3, GTE, and more will be premium only.

Discussion in 'iRacing Forum' started by Peeble, Dec 10, 2017.

  1. Peeble

    Peeble Core

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    Here's a relevant discussion about modified VRS sets:

    http://members.iracing.com/jforum/posts/list/25/3583029.page
     
    Noodleguitar likes this.
  2. Duke

    Duke Staff Member Site Admin

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  3. Peeble

    Peeble Core

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    On a side note, I've found Craig A Williams sets to be pretty decent. He posts them on his discord: https://discord.gg/Weme6zV
     
  4. Nejtun

    Nejtun Moderator

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    It is getting to be quite a heavy topic on the iracing forum and even here. I think it is important to remember though that we do this league and all the other games for fun and community above everything else right? We all play games and iracing as sim and accurate as it is (mostly) is still a a game we all enjoy ;)

    We got away with forum sets and our own sets long before we found the VRS sets so just a bit of convenience removed once we lose access to them, it was nice while they were free and i think we all appreciated being able to just open a web page and "one click" download a setup with zero effort.

    After going through the iracing thread and seeing how serious people are getting about this, I am not going to ruffle anyones feathers by sharing a set if they don't want me to but I am not too fussed if I can't use them by not paying either.

    I/we have been spoiled for ages with these nice free sets :) But going back to working it out for myself might breathe a bit of life back into iracing for me also as I have been pretty slack(bored?) with it for the last couple of months.

    Only thing, as has already been mentioned, is not being able to use them in league as per our own rules, but this may get us interacting a bit more with each other during practice pal/league nights rather than just charging around trying to get the quickest times when instead we can be helping each other/begging for heeeeeelllllp with some set up issue or another. I dunno just my thoughts as I just want to enjoy my games and save the possible drama for real life nonsense ;)
     
    Ryan Walker and Duke like this.
  5. Duke

    Duke Staff Member Site Admin

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    Honestly the more we discuss this the more I think it isn't that big a deal to lose access to VCR. All VCR has done is make me lazy about learning setups which I was starting to get reasonable with when racing the Merc previously.

    I like the idea of us working together to get sets running quickly, it's just far more interactive a process and educational at the same time.
     
    SavreticD, Sam Roselaar and Nejtun like this.
  6. SavreticD

    SavreticD Core

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    I like that,them to go premium with sets but on the other hand I understand that somebody just dont have time to spent hours to make set he will like it.
    But most of the people will just switch to Craig shop
     
  7. Brainling

    Brainling Core

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    In the end I think this is about what they wanted VRS to be and it's not a setup shop. Those setups were always meant to be for people trying to use the other tools to find lap time. It's so you and the person driving the control lap have the same setup and you remove that as a variable. They want engaged customers using their tools in their practice regimes not people just scraping setups. Engaged drivers who are regularly using your tools stay engaged customers much longer.

    I don't really understand the pay to win argument, since VRS doesn't own or operate iRacing, but I can understand how people see it differently.
     
    SavreticD likes this.
  8. SavreticD

    SavreticD Core

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    Pay to win can say somebody who thinks setup will give him 2-3 more seconds,only guys like that.
    Setup will never,just never be faster 2-3 seconds,if it is,that is you who is faster and when you go on baseline you will be close to that time in GT3 car.
    Of course you can have broken setup,wing 5 on LeMans etc,Im not talking about that,Im talking about 2 sets,VRS and your set for that track and normal track lenght
    So may people think pro guys are fast because setup,yeah right
    Setup can give you .5 sec,that is it in GT3,on normal lenght tracks like Sebring,RA....not Nords :) Maybe little more on some tracks,but not 2 sec
    If you put wing 5 on LeMans then yes,it is possible to be faster 2 sec of course
    And to be clear,last some time VRS sets for Merc are so bad that I forgot VRS is building setups anymore,not sure for other cars but for Merc setups was bad.

    When you look at it many people are in VRS,building setups,upload videos etc,that is time-consuming so I understand them.Analysing tool is awesome,that I must admit
     
  9. Brainling

    Brainling Core

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    Even if setups could give you 2-3 seconds (which, as you said, they can't, driving skill being equal), unless VRS has access to some magic setup variables you don't, or someone started to directly effect the design and development decisions of iRacing, I just can't see the pay to win argument. Unless VRS is somehow forcing design and development decisions in iRacing itself, which I highly doubt, it's a third party offering a service.

    If iRacing starts selling "setup packs" I think we can have a discussion about pay to win. I highly doubt that will ever happen.
     
  10. Duke

    Duke Staff Member Site Admin

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    I've heard this statement made before and I disagree with it now just as much as I did then.

    I believe this is a sweeping statement that assumes we as weekend warriors and non professional Drivers are actually intuitive enough to know what's costing us time and talented enough to do something about it.

    Maybe this is the case for most of you but it is most certainly not the case for me. I'm blown away by the ability some of you have to seamlessly transition not only between cars but Series where handling can be vastly different. It's a level of flexibility I wish I had but since I don't I turn countless laps in #PracticePals trying to find a way to get through the track without being a danger to myself or more importantly, others.

    I've been criticized, made fun of, teased or what have you for my refusal to just jump on track and race and this is the reason. I will not race unless my comfort level is there and given I've raced many of these tracks numerous times now setup makes ALL the difference to me.

    I'm still very early in the learning process of what it takes to make the car conform to my Driving style because I'm not flexible enough to drive quickly unless I'm on a stable platform.

    If the car is unstable in entry, through the corner, exit, weight transition, braking, bumps, etc., then it's something that weighs on me throughout the race and costs me lots of time on track. A setup that is able to give me a mostly controlled drive with varying fuel levels through the course of the race makes me faster as it's organic in nature all in my subconscious.

    In other words it's just one less thing to worry about so I can concentrate on Driving.

    So to say a setup can make me 2 - 3 seconds/lap quicker, at least in my case, is absolutely 100% correct.

    This is what bothers me most about VCR and why I consider it Pay to Win as 50% of the time it's the only setup I could use effectively over the last 2 Seasons in the BMW. Without it I would not have only been slower but more dangerous.

    Again this may not be the same for you but in my case it's proven true time and time again.
     
  11. SavreticD

    SavreticD Core

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    You should copy 2 my lines

    Setup will never,just never be faster 2-3 seconds,if it is,that is you who is faster and when you go on baseline you will be close to that time in GT3 car.
    Of course you can have broken setup,wing 5 on LeMans etc,Im not talking about that,Im talking about 2 sets,VRS and your set for that track and normal track lenght

    And if you really believe setup will win you 2-3 sec then you will just make changes to the car and like that in circle without thinking it is you who can change something to go faster.
    For me setup will never give me 2 sec,wenewer I build set for some normal length track and normal wing level track I can go to baseline and differents is not big,not 2 sec for sure.You can give me 5 different setups for that track and difference will not be 2 seconds between them.
    2-3 sec is a lot of time,a lot

    But you can have broken set,that is different

    Basiacly my point is my setup vs VRS setup differents will not be that big for me to pay for that, analyzing tool yes,that is very good and can help much more than setup
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2017
  12. Duke

    Duke Staff Member Site Admin

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    Again that is not true. Every week I start at baseline and either work with it to get it to where I can run it or give up and use someone else's set to find that time.

    The time, consistency or whatever I find is due to the setup being one I can manage the car with.

    Again you may be different but that does not mean what works for you works for me.
     
  13. SavreticD

    SavreticD Core

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    Did you ever try when you finished setup to go back to baseline to try?
     
  14. Duke

    Duke Staff Member Site Admin

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    Yes all the time.

    If you watch any of my streams you'll see me continually do that particularly if something isn't working. It's the main reason I never race Mondays simply because it's just not enough time for me to find a set that works with how I need to drive.

    Sometimes it's so bad I won't even race Wednesdays, it's that big a deal for me.

    ...but what you need to understand about me is I have no Racing background at all. Prior to iRacing I played very little Racing games/sims and never really watched racing on TV. Racing is just something I've not had exposure to throughout my life and the knowledge I've accrued is based on everything I've learned through iRacing's Video Tutorials, YouTube and of course, you guys.

    In saying that though I've accrued enough experience to know if a car is costing me time. This is when I start tweaking a bit to improve those characteristics but oftentimes given my timetable I take big swings at setup changes (which I'm told you're not supposed to do) so I end up back at baseline frequently.

    You've all seen it too. The silly names I sometimes call the sets are a convoluted method of me keeping them straight in my head and having a little fun in the process.

    You may even recall our 24 hours at Spa where we were tweaking the setup until the night prior. I think you may have even commented on it that we shouldn't be making change that late which I agree with but something was wrong.

    I know I was the slowest on our Team but it wasn't by near the margin I thought it would be. It's because the car was the most stable and predictable it could have been so it was something I didn't have to worry about hence I drove relaxed and ran one of my best Endurance Races ever.

    Going into that Event with you @SavreticD, @Noodleguitar and @Bedo I was really worried about being our Teams Handicap. The setup we eventually settled on made me far less worried about being slow or crashing out and was one of the primary reasons for my success there.

    To put it another way, comfort is what makes me competitive and I don't find that comfort in my Driving, I find it in the setup.

    ...and reduced lap times come with it.
     
  15. SavreticD

    SavreticD Core

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    You did great on Spa,we all did,it was great race,one of my best experiance in sim racing

    We are talking about 2-3 seconds,hey,2-3 second,that is a lot of time,a lot.

    I also dont have sim racing bacground,just P Cars 2 months,that was it.

    That statemant,setup will not win you 2 second you will hear mostly from pro or fast guys,see on forum,it is like that.They know that.
    And like I said,Im not talking good setup vs broken setup or vs wing 55 on LeMans,Im talking lets say baseline on Sebring vs your good set,cant be 2 second,its just cant.Im talking about just pure laptime,your fastest time,not consistency,easy to drive etc.
    That is why we building setups,to be easy for drive for us and to be consistent,like that you are faster lap by lap but not 2 seconds,that is a lot of time.
    I hope you know what Im talking about

    We can try in Friday,you will probably have setup for that in Friday,just go on baseline,give it few laps,adopt and I belive differents will not be 2 sec
    We can try that in Friday for fun,I have setup for Sebring I think but I need track practice a little
     
  16. Skid_Marc_

    Skid_Marc_ Staff Member Admin

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    I think the word you mean here is adapt, but Ken and I have had this conversation multiple times. Some people tune their driving to the car, but Ken tunes the car to his driving. The people who adapt their driving to the setup won't see a significant difference between setups, because they'll be able to squeeze the speed out of it where they can.

    For instance; More rear downforce = loss in top speed, so capitalize on corner speed/corner exit (BMW). Less rear downforce = more top speed, so be cautious on corner exit to maximize straight-line speed.

    For people who can't/won't adapt to the cars handling, they'll want the car to brake, turn, and accelerate as they like. And, for Ken, this is make or break. The car either handles the way he is comfortable with, and he has good pace, or the car is unstable and the lack of comfort results in mistakes/wrecks, but that is it. You're not making the car "faster", you are making the car more "comfortable" to drive fast. This isn't an insult, and I'm not trying to pick on Ken! However, this is also why Ken is going to be the least effected by the loss of VRS, because they were never going to make a setup that suited him anyways! Ken has to take the time to make the car suitable to him, and he won't settle for anything less.

    I'm actually the complete opposite. I'm generally not attune enough to feel the difference a click of anything will do to the setup. I'm pretty basic and dumb, and I drive what is in front of me, aside from a large change like adding/removing wing. Instead, I figure out where I can put my foot down, and where I can't.

    Dennis' point is that he could jump into any of your setups, Ken, and probably still go quick with them. I would definitely love to see this! (I'm sure Dennis would have some very interesting things to say, to describe how the car feels to him...) However, I doubt the changes are going to knock two, or more, seconds off of his pace.
     
    SavreticD likes this.
  17. SavreticD

    SavreticD Core

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    True Marc,that is why we build setups,to be comfortable,safe and automatically you are going faster.My point was that is not 2-3 sec faster.I can adapt to car,learn setup,that is true but I also like to have car setup how I like and drive.Thing is with few setups for certan track I will change driving stile and I will be close with laptimes,not the same of course but it will not be 2 sec difference

    Regarding Ken and what you said,yes I agree with that,he will build set good for him but that doesnt mean he will be faster 2-3 sec,safer,more comfortable and little faster yes,maybe faster even second but not 2,that is just to much
    I hear you and understand what are you talking about,he needs car to be how he likes,I understand that but I think that doesnt mean he cant be in within 2 sec with baseline,just that


    Oh one good example.Nords 24h this year.Ok Im not driving Audi,car was broken or bad however you want to interpret and when I tried car for qualy I died like 100 times,just couldnt drive that.Setup was high front of the car,stable rear,wing A but hey,I dont know how to drive that,I struggled.Then I tried to learn that setup and driving stile,slow in,fast out,never did that before and I was trying to drive Audi same as Merc,not good.
    But hey,I learned,I adopt and bum,P25 qualy time from all guys who qualy,pretty good :) and at the end setup was actually so stable,I just needed to not drive like Merc

    Marc I also sometimes dont feel when I change something,usually when Im drivind long time,after 2h its all the same for me :)
     

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