iRacing Practice Pals Discussion

[ElektroVodka]

Yeah i can safely say i need the practice, i just stop racing whenever someone is on my bumper.
Too scared to run someone else off the road so i slow down and leave room.

I think it might be smart to practice some close group racing for me?

 

[Daunt]

Yeah i can safely say i need the practice, i just stop racing whenever someone is on my bumper.
Too scared to run someone else off the road so i slow down and leave room.

I think it might be smart to practice some close group racing for me?

Takes a while to get comfortable / racey with others. I was pretty passive about anyone behind me for a good few months. PP is the best option and will help learn all of the sort of close proximity racing that is tough to learn otherwise.

 

[Kenadian]

We're going to need to take a good long look into this program and correct some of the long standing issues that have plagued it since day 1.

I believe the most common issues that detract from the experience as a whole are:

1. Two or three lap stints before chaos ensues. This is a byproduct of running closer than you would in race which makes no sense as Practice Pals is meant to be a race prep program.
2. Pit confusion: This is when people aren't ready, don't know when or how to pit out and the rest of us have to wait for them to catch up/slot in. This needs to be refined so those not ready to Pit Out (making setup changes or what have you) don't force the rest of us to wait up for them to be ready. For evidence of how bad this can become simply view any of my streams on Twitch.
3. Bitchy Drivers: It's inevitable that we attract some of these folks but we need to address it nonetheless.
4. Program regularity: This is my fault because I just can't be relied upon to ensure these sessions run on a consistent time scale alone. Quite simply if I'm not here they don't happen and that's not going to help us build. I need help in this area ensuring that we maintain a schedule that people can count on if we're to build.
5. Currently we have nothing in place to help drivers license up.
6. Defamatory ranting: We've all been guilty of this whereby someone loses their shit and rants about another iRacer or worse, iRacing Employee.

I realize the above looks like a big list but it's nothing given how much good Practice Pals actually does.

It will help you Quick and others I'm sure, all we need to do is tie down the loose ends and start focusing on extending our reach (which I'll address in another topic).

As of this morning I've had another query into how to "sign up" or "Register" to participate in Practice Pals via YouTube. This means we're out there a bit more than I thought we were so it's time to start taking this to the next level.

I think it would be best if we could get everyone on TS at the same time to discuss some of the above and any other ideas you guys may have.

Remember, the end means are bringing racers into the B2O fold and eventually running our own Thriving League.

 

[Daunt]

I just want to give my opinion on a some of your points.

1. Two or three lap stints before chaos ensues. This is a byproduct of running closer than you would in race which makes no sense as Practice Pals is meant to be a race prep program.

I disagree with this. Practice is the best time to test your limits, learn how close you can drive with competitors and your own abilities. A race is a completely different monster that I would be a lot safer in. The key though is learning how safe you can be and how close you can get before you cross that line. Obviously being reckless is not welcome in PP, but crashes happen and you'll never learn your limits if you aren't pushing them.

I try to treat is pretty close to a race, with attempting to pass and all. I will admit I'm probably a bit more careless, but again, it's about learning what I can do and where I can push it. If I crash into turn 2 multiple times I now know, NOT to try and pass there, because I obviously can't, or whatever other reason.

2. Pit confusion: This is when people aren't ready, don't know when or how to pit out and the rest of us have to wait for them to catch up/slot in. This needs to be refined so those not ready to Pit Out (making setup changes or what have you) don't force the rest of us to wait up for them to be ready. For evidence of how bad this can become simply view any of my streams on Twitch.

This can be an issue sometimes. We just need to coordinate a little more. Mostly just have an understanding that the train keeps rolling. If you have to pit out, then you have to wait for the train to come around again. Plain and simple. (Imagine crashing out at turn 1 of Nurburgring!)

5. Currently we have nothing in place to help drivers license up.

I'm not sure how we would? We are for practicing only. Our practice, if taken seriously, should have a direct impact on your driving and should show... but what else could we do other than run Mazda races with new members and offer advice? I don't see running races as a PP-type event, as it is no longer practice...

 

[Kenadian]

Testing your limits is one thing but they do nothing if they wreck half the field around you.

I understand your POV Kyle but if you take a look at most of our sessions with 4 or more drivers, you'd be hard pressed to find any that have more than a few accumulated laps before a nearly total wreckfest.

If it was more sporadic in nature then it wouldn't be an issue but sadly wrecking is more the norm in traffic.

I can say without hesitation I know of at least a few drivers that refuse to practice with us because of it.

As for helping drivers license up, I'm seeing this more and more on Twitch. Last night streaming GT3 I had close to 25 viewers which isn't bad considering the irregularity of my stream schedule.

One thing I see the most is new drivers talking about licensing up so they can finally join us in session.

Perhaps theming the nights on a consistent schedule is a better idea? Maybe V8 Mondays, GT3 Wednesdays, Rookie Fridays to start, not sure?

Anyway, my list was things I noticed and were issues I thought I'd share as none were all side effects of things I hadn't considered when creating this program.

Eventually I want it to reach everyone who wants to participate and as you can see we already have a rather diverse field. We have aliens, watered down aliens, quickies, average, and slightly off pace drivers; pretty good so far.

 

[Daunt]

Anyone can drive with us in session. They're just practices, so this should not be an issue. You do not need to license up to run in any series' practice. As long as they have the track and car, they can run with us.

I'm also not sure how wrecking "does nothing" when it certainly teaches yourself and everyone around you. Wreck avoidance, catching the car, and in general learning that you shouldn't try what you did in that turn, or whatever is all a part of practice.

And again you can't really test your limits when you don't know what they are. Driving with you in the V8s last week, I ran into you a few times and I wrecked a few times. I learned a lot from driving right on top of you, something that was certainly a race setting in this case, but of course would always help, even if I did wreck you a few more times.

I totally get what you're saying. But it still is practice and still is the perfect place to flesh out where mistakes might happen and find out where you can push it. That's how I see it anyway. If I wreck myself and another dude in practice to learn not to pass on turn 2, then it is totally worth it.

 

[Kenadian]

I know you may not see it Kyle but it does matter in Practice that you are at the right license level relative to the Series being run. What you're forgetting is you had X amount of experience accrued by the time you got to GT3 so you're driving at a higher level whether you're aware of it or not.

You cannot (for the most part) put a Rookie or D-Class in a GT3 car and expect them to keep up; it just doesn't happen.

How long until they feel like they're left out or feeling put out because they're off pace when they really don't have the seasoning to be anything but?

I want to find ways to avoid these types of issues before they become issues.

This was always a weak spot in this program because it doesn't account for new drivers and their journey through the license progression.

...and I really think you're missing my point on the wrecking. I know it's going to happen when you're testing the limits but the problem is that it's simply too frequent. You can say all you want to validate it but it doesn't communicate well over a Stream or a YouTube Video.

People don't want to learn how to crash, they already know how to do that. They want to know how to compete, hopefully cleanly. I don't want to be the vehicle for over aggressive driving, dive-bombing and general ass-hattery on track.

I know you won't take that away from Practice Pals but can you safely say that about everyone who enters this program with this being the internet? I was a total asshole to Dino because I felt his sometimes over-aggressive race style could paint a dim picture of Band of Others when it wasn't his fault.

I wasn't mad at him really but I'm protective/overprotective of our brand and I take that seriously. I'd rather err on the side of caution when it comes to public perception of our brand than not.

...and after 10+ years and over 25,000 USD spent on Webhosting is there anyone on the Planet who can blame me?

From a purely aesthetic point of view, imagine if we have 4 cars in close proximity over an hour practice session. All of these cars are running B2O/Practice Pals Paints for example:



...and we wreck, and we wreck, and we wreck, and we wreck, and we wreck, and we wreck, and we wreck, and we wreck, and we wreck, and we wreck, and we wreck, and we wreck..

How does that paint a good picture?

I'm sorry, but that is Practice Pals with anymore than 4 drivers in close proximity all the time.

I understand for you it may be testing the limits but it won't be that for everyone. For me I look to Practice Pals to find other lines and navigate cleanly in traffic.

If I want limits I'll turn laps on my own.

You have to remember that perception becomes reality and we can't control perception. Not everyone is going to look for the same things out of this program so we need to find ways to accommodate drivers with differing end goals.

I am glad we're discussing it though because nothing has changed to this point and there's nobody I know of who thinks the way it is currently is perfect.

This is what we need to do if we're to grow.

I will be testing out some policy changes that I feel are in line with how the program was originally created. They'll either work and be embraced or not work and be thrown out.

Either way I just want to take it to the next level because we have a pretty solid foundation but there's always ways to improve upon it.

 

[Daunt]

I just commented on the fact that you said everyone was asking about licensing up so they can join us in session. I pointed out the fact that they already can. I understand the point in not wanting to rush people in and having them become instantly frustrated.

My point on the subject being that even if we were jump down to Mazdas, the same thing is occurring. We can and would run laps around someone who just subbed.

I still disagree with your limits outlook. Sure you can practice all you want yourself, but then when you get in a race, your limits change. Draft changes braking points, how you drive out of a turn or into a turn is different. Its not the same and we know it isn't, hence PP.

I will agree in that for the overall outlook, it won't get better unless we do end up treating runs as race runs. Maybe we should even do races with unlimited resets more often? I think those would still be fun, learning-centered races that would actually make a really good gateway to a full-blown league.

 

[Kenadian]

That's actually a very good point in Mazda's but there is an answer believe it or not, Mazda's vs Slowstaces. The Mazda would be a Rookie car and the vets could drive the Pontiac.

It probably won't work for every track because a straight is all you need to blow past a Slowstace but at Summit Point (for example), the combination could prove a winner.

At the end of the day though the focus is always on League and building our Community so any changes we can make to ensure both are winners.

 

[Daunt]

Hahaha that would certainly be fun. Would obviously require a hosted session.

Take my suggestion into serious consideration. I think hosting a race once a week with unlimited resets could be real fun and provide a great flood of interest and traffic from a stream. Not to mention as I said it would be a perfect foundation for a league. Make it extra interesting and at a track no one really practiced so we're more on equal footing maybe... and possibly even start with the cars you mentioned.

 

[Kenadian]

I think that's a great idea and we were discussing something very similar in V8 Practice last night.

 

[Daunt]

Well it was my idea first. JK.

At fifty cents for an hour, we can easily just run a 40 minute race after 10 min practice and 10 minute qualy. Or something like that... I know everyone involved with PP here is more than willing to host.

Let's get to planning, everyone wants to do it!

 

[Daunt]

I wanted to take a moment to discuss the quality of racing at our Practice Pals session last night. Overall I was pretty disappointed with it; there was little to no effort in racecraft, respect or anything along those lines.

The main premise behind Practice Pals is getting better in a race-type setting with traffic with friends. I won't say nothing, but it was very rare that anyone was racing as if they were in a race setting. The mentality of "oh let's just reset" isn't necessarily a good one to carry here. Full fuel runs and great mini/practice races should be the norm. Instead, everyone is racing in an overly-aggressive manner that they'd never do in an official series race. Cars were flying through the air every other lap, chicanes were blown on a regular basis. It didn't paint a pretty picture for our streamers.

Sorry to be brutally honest. But not picking on anyone specifically. Anyone agree? Disagree?

 

[Kenadian]

I wanted to take a moment to discuss the quality of racing at our Practice Pals session last night. Overall I was pretty disappointed with it; there was little to no effort in racecraft, respect or anything along those lines.

The main premise behind Practice Pals is getting better in a race-type setting with traffic with friends. I won't say nothing, but it was very rare that anyone was racing as if they were in a race setting. The mentality of "oh let's just reset" isn't necessarily a good one to carry here. Full fuel runs and great mini/practice races should be the norm. Instead, everyone is racing in an overly-aggressive manner that they'd never do in an official series race. Cars were flying through the air every other lap, chicanes were blown on a regular basis. It didn't paint a pretty picture for our streamers.

Sorry to be brutally honest. But not picking on anyone specifically. Anyone agree? Disagree?

There are actually a number of issues with the Practice Pals formula that were simply never considered when setting it up.

I created Practice Pals off an idea of what I wanted from it and assumed everyone else would look for similar results.

I also never took into account large disparities in both experience and race-craft.

As Kyle stated, it's one thing for it to be chaotic like it was last night but quite another to Stream it Live to Twitch.

The thing that saves us is the comms though lol.

I think what we need to do is come up with some decent guidelines that take into account how we differ as racers. It also wouldn't be a bad idea if we could approach it from what people are looking to improve upon first.

It could be as simple as not driving through one another when someone calls "Pit Party?"

...or more work may need to be done?

Regardless, we should make an effort to clean it up a bit as Practice Pals is the vehicle that will populate our League. People won't want to be involved if they see it as a n00b filled free for all.

Incidentally, these are good problems to have. This is all part of the growing process so please don't take this as anything other than constructive criticism.

There is a place in Practice Pals for everyone, maybe we just need better organization to clean things up a bit?

Any and all feedback greatly appreciated!

 

[Slider]

The guy I called into TS last night sent me private message in session that he left because there was too much yelling and general debauchery. I couldn't do much as I had guests at home. Reinaldo is a fast, clean GT3 driver that could have potentially helped us with some tips, but he chose to leave after hearing what was going on.

Just to clarify to anyone that wondered who it was.

 

[Daunt]

No I thought about that too, Dino. At first you made it sound like it was our comms were too hectic, which I'm sure they were. But our driving was not attracting the good drivers, either. Which is a big deal I think. Thanks for letting us know. Hopefully you can get him to try running with us again.

 

[ElektroVodka]

I don't want to come over as an utter twat but i think i will anyway.

There's too many of us to simply adjust to the complaint/suggestion of one or 2 persons.
And in all honesty it doesn't work like that, you either fit in B2O or you don't.
In this case the driver was pulled from session and not from the stream, so he clearly didn't know what to expect from the chatter on TS.
Which is all fine, but do keep in mind there are 12 others that won't adjust to the new guy. And i don't expect them to either.


However, in session i agree with you Daunt.
I got kind of fed up resetting to the pits when i didn't even reach turn 2 yet.
Whenever one car has to reset, just keep it to that car and don't reset the entire B2O field.
I was doing that for the remaining time in session and it clearly helped me gerting the times down by 1s.

(To be continued, i need to take a massive sh!t)

 

[Daunt]

hahaha quick.

You are right. We are not catering to every single person that connects to TS. I was just making the point that our driving certainly didn't cater to drivers who wanted to really practice.

And no doubt about the long run. But then sometimes people pit out not wanting to wait and then we eventually get two trains. But we should be able to make it work.

 

[ElektroVodka]

Oh yes exactly, the ontrack performance could use some shaping.

With the wide range of experience it's real hard to find a median to cater all drivers
I wouldn't say it's impossible as it isn't. It does however take some adjusting from everyone in session.

We'll get there, no worries.

 

[Daunt]

I wanted to share this because there was a dicussion on the forum about practicing, and then it got into how the pros (iracing pro drivers) spend their time practicing. They were saying they set up specific traffic in corners to practice overtaking and other scenarios, something that we try to emulate, which is really cool to see pros doing what we're doing:

[video=youtube;0Y5-DZNjBOg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Y5-DZNjBOg[/video]

In the video its Max Verstappen and Atze Kerhoff