JohnnyK
Hardcore
http://oscarmike.com/index.php?media/battlefield-3-aug-and-m320-smoke-bug.20/
Their QA seems to be quite shoddy.
Their QA seems to be quite shoddy.
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- Thread starter JohnnyK
- Start date
I understand that's the role of QA and I agree, these things should not happen but they do happen in pretty much all games. I can't even think of a game that has come out perfect and didn't require some level of patching within weeks of release (often times even during release).
BF3 is unique in that it has so many weapons and so many weapon options over 3 slots so I'm really not too surprised to see this sort of thing happen.
I just think Dice/EA just need to work much, much, much, harder on patching them right away instead of boxing them into these 00ber patches that typically break as much as they fix.
BF3 is unique in that it has so many weapons and so many weapon options over 3 slots so I'm really not too surprised to see this sort of thing happen.
I just think Dice/EA just need to work much, much, much, harder on patching them right away instead of boxing them into these 00ber patches that typically break as much as they fix.
mondo
Hardcore
QA is usually not the problem, its either the amount of resources/time QA is allowed to spend on a project or the producer not prioritising the right bugs to be fixed.
Testing is just the end part in a process, QA should encompass the entire process. If all the other phases in a project do not take into account QA best practice then this is why these kind of things often happen but QA gets it in the neck. Its surprising but allot of companies resist this sort of approach mainly because developers object to it or its seen as costly.
Duke, the reason why Dice doesn't do that is because EA has a certification phase which takes a while to pass and it all has to be booked into EA QA so they do it in batches. If Dice were there own publisher to they could use a method called Continuous Integration which would allow them to roll out fixes pretty fast. EA is just to big and complicated for them to react quickly enough to fixing small bugs.
I can also see why they don't want to develop for PC much longer, it requires enormous man power to test the functionality of a title then do the compatibility which is the same thing again but 10 fold. Its not something you can automate much of so you need allot of manual testers, which is extremely expensive. Even on consoles now, its not as easy as it once was to test a game (or any software, principles are the same).
I can say all that from being associated QA manager and QA manager on several triple A titles over the years.
Testing is just the end part in a process, QA should encompass the entire process. If all the other phases in a project do not take into account QA best practice then this is why these kind of things often happen but QA gets it in the neck. Its surprising but allot of companies resist this sort of approach mainly because developers object to it or its seen as costly.
Duke, the reason why Dice doesn't do that is because EA has a certification phase which takes a while to pass and it all has to be booked into EA QA so they do it in batches. If Dice were there own publisher to they could use a method called Continuous Integration which would allow them to roll out fixes pretty fast. EA is just to big and complicated for them to react quickly enough to fixing small bugs.
I can also see why they don't want to develop for PC much longer, it requires enormous man power to test the functionality of a title then do the compatibility which is the same thing again but 10 fold. Its not something you can automate much of so you need allot of manual testers, which is extremely expensive. Even on consoles now, its not as easy as it once was to test a game (or any software, principles are the same).
I can say all that from being associated QA manager and QA manager on several triple A titles over the years.
I totally understand Mondo but that's for adding insight into the matter, it certainly does help when looking at the bigger picture.
What I don't get is when there is such an public outcry toward a clear issue, why resources aren't allocated to fix it? I do realize there is this Certification Process but that process must grow tenfold whenever you add another fix or change to it?
It just seems to me that smaller issues handled either individually or in smaller groups would be easier and cheaper to roll out while providing the added benefit of keeping your Customers happy (something EA is horrible for).
Valve must have figured out a way because their always rolling out improvements and for the most part, it's pretty seamless.
What I don't get is when there is such an public outcry toward a clear issue, why resources aren't allocated to fix it? I do realize there is this Certification Process but that process must grow tenfold whenever you add another fix or change to it?
It just seems to me that smaller issues handled either individually or in smaller groups would be easier and cheaper to roll out while providing the added benefit of keeping your Customers happy (something EA is horrible for).
Valve must have figured out a way because their always rolling out improvements and for the most part, it's pretty seamless.
JohnnyK
Hardcore
Bill, thanks for the insight. My QA experience is in a different field (web app/web site) and on a much smaller scale and we also miss a lot of stuff, but I am still baffled that core things like OP weapons slip through especially since this is testing that can be done manually quite quickly and should also be fairly easy to automate if the necessary infrastructure is put in place from the start.
Duke, pretty sure DICE said they do not want to put PCs and consoles on different patch levels, and since console patches need additional certification from MS and Sony and cost fees to roll out us PC players get the shaft.
Duke, pretty sure DICE said they do not want to put PCs and consoles on different patch levels, and since console patches need additional certification from MS and Sony and cost fees to roll out us PC players get the shaft.
I gotta say, I hear what you both are saying but I just don't believe for the life of me that this is everything. I do realize there is certification involved which makes sense as to why the process slows down but IMHO, most of it is structured around greed rather than good common sense and the interests of the end user.
The only thing I can understand from this entire subject is that there must be a lot of money in consoles otherwise why on Earth would they pay to certify anything? Any console that does not see the title loses the potential revenue stream so it makes no sense to me to put roadblocks in the process?
Maybe I'm just too simple but I still don't see the connections really?
The other thing that gets me is that if it's so important to sync consoles and PC's, why do they stagger releases the way they do?
Lastly, nobody can convince me no matter how hard they try that the patch that created the Dart issue was a "waiting for Certification issue". That patch was all about killing as many birds with one stone as possible while also adding console server rentals to the formula. Money drove the patch prior to this one and I have no doubt that money drove this latest patch as well.
Hopefully we see a fix when Close Quarters comes out but I'm not holding my breath at this point.
The only thing I can understand from this entire subject is that there must be a lot of money in consoles otherwise why on Earth would they pay to certify anything? Any console that does not see the title loses the potential revenue stream so it makes no sense to me to put roadblocks in the process?
Maybe I'm just too simple but I still don't see the connections really?
The other thing that gets me is that if it's so important to sync consoles and PC's, why do they stagger releases the way they do?
Lastly, nobody can convince me no matter how hard they try that the patch that created the Dart issue was a "waiting for Certification issue". That patch was all about killing as many birds with one stone as possible while also adding console server rentals to the formula. Money drove the patch prior to this one and I have no doubt that money drove this latest patch as well.
Hopefully we see a fix when Close Quarters comes out but I'm not holding my breath at this point.
I find myself wondering just how corrupt the gaming industry actually is as a whole?
There really seems to be some evenly keeled companies out there like Bethesda, BIS, Valve and ID (which I guess is just Bethesda now), but there are other companies that really seem to not give a crap such as EA of course and even Codemasters has gone downhill over the years.
I totally understand and support the need to make a profit however I don't think that a dev should turn their backs once the money is in the bank.
I think if EA didn't have all the franchise licenses that they do, they'd probably quickly go out of business or be bought out by a larger dev/publisher because people wouldn't continually fork out money for crap.
The Sims is another franchise that boggles the mind. Sure it's fun (for a few hours) but is it worth dropping $30 to get Seasons then another $30 to get pets then another to get nightlife and then another $15 for careers; essentially milking us for hundreds after the fact on content they really should have included in the original $70 game?
If this is what the industry was then I guess I'd just stfu and keep donning out my money but not all devs are greedy like this. I'm 150 hours into Skyrim and I paid $60; conversely I'm 3 hours into Mass Effect 3 and paid $75 (won't finish because it's been ruined by EA).
I do have considerable hours put into BF3 but I also have a considerable financial investment in the franchise. Is it too much to ask to see some ROI on bug fixing?
I realize I've gone off on a tangent but seriously, I get a little peeved when I feel like I pay for hype and all I get is air.
There really seems to be some evenly keeled companies out there like Bethesda, BIS, Valve and ID (which I guess is just Bethesda now), but there are other companies that really seem to not give a crap such as EA of course and even Codemasters has gone downhill over the years.
I totally understand and support the need to make a profit however I don't think that a dev should turn their backs once the money is in the bank.
I think if EA didn't have all the franchise licenses that they do, they'd probably quickly go out of business or be bought out by a larger dev/publisher because people wouldn't continually fork out money for crap.
The Sims is another franchise that boggles the mind. Sure it's fun (for a few hours) but is it worth dropping $30 to get Seasons then another $30 to get pets then another to get nightlife and then another $15 for careers; essentially milking us for hundreds after the fact on content they really should have included in the original $70 game?
If this is what the industry was then I guess I'd just stfu and keep donning out my money but not all devs are greedy like this. I'm 150 hours into Skyrim and I paid $60; conversely I'm 3 hours into Mass Effect 3 and paid $75 (won't finish because it's been ruined by EA).
I do have considerable hours put into BF3 but I also have a considerable financial investment in the franchise. Is it too much to ask to see some ROI on bug fixing?
I realize I've gone off on a tangent but seriously, I get a little peeved when I feel like I pay for hype and all I get is air.
mondo
Hardcore
Its like any industry, some publishers are moral, some are bastards. EA and Activision are proper bastards.
What is corrupt is advertising and ratings in the game industry. I wouldn't read a single article from somewhere like Eurogamer for instance, most of the games they review from large publishers are advertorials. They're not alone by any means either, its wide spread.
Duke, I could go on for hours on these topics because I worked in the games industry for years and I've been in QA for 13 years and still have many friends in the industry.
What is corrupt is advertising and ratings in the game industry. I wouldn't read a single article from somewhere like Eurogamer for instance, most of the games they review from large publishers are advertorials. They're not alone by any means either, its wide spread.
Duke, I could go on for hours on these topics because I worked in the games industry for years and I've been in QA for 13 years and still have many friends in the industry.
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