Steam contradicting itself?

[little P]

ffs Duke calm down you're comparing me returning some digital content to the end of the free world for pete's sake. Never mind all the offensive names you just called me indirectly. My thread was about Steam contradicting itself, which it has done plain and simple. That fact can't be argued. I just wanted to warn others that this is something that they may come across if they, like me thought that you could return a game for whatever reason as their terms and conditions state.

For some reason you have decided to launch a tirade of abuse my way, or that's how it reads anyway intentional or not. It's fine of course to feel passionate about something and you do raise some good points but don't be a dick about it. I don't mind when we call each other dumb etc. when it's banter, but you are being serious here and that's not cool.

In response to some of your points and in the interest of discussing things like reasonable human beings yes, people do buy things and return them. It happens a lot actually, more than you obviously realize. Clothes, games, loads of things. I'm not sure what it's like where you are but over here pretty much everything you buy can be returned within 14 days. Often longer. And yes even cars. Mobile phones. Tablets. Computer parts. The list goes on.

I agree with the point raised earlier by a couple of people about it will hopefully mean that the creators of these games will hopefully raise the bar when it comes to releasing content. I have paid for and kept a lot of content this year, content that was worth it.

If you look through my steam library you will see a huge variety in games in there, so it's not like I was just buying something to try a new genre or something, I like games from all genres. I even have Train Simulator in there ffs. I kept that one because you know, it's good. You could tell they put a lot of effort in there. The games I have returned have been shoddily put together, have glitched/were buggy in some way or another, or just don't live up to what is advertised.

From talking to people in teamspeak about it who haven't posted in this thread for one reason or another (maybe they are afraid of being called "stupid", "a complete moron" accused of having no common sense and doing "stupid shit"?) a lot of other people feel the same way that they are fed up of being duped into buying unfinished games or basically a game full of lies and disappointment.

Here's another point that this thread has brought up.

Increasingly so it's hard to find reviews that are unbiased in some way or haven't been hoodwinked into giving a biased review. Why not be able to trial a game for an hour or so? If it's a pile of crap or doesn't live up to your expectations as a consumer then yes, return it. That way we will get better products in the long run surely? We used to be able to do this in the form of demos but they are becoming increasingly rare, and people inevitably turn to piracy to trial a game, then they have the moral obligation to buy the software if they like it. Trouble is it's too tempting for people to not take that step and just keep the pirated software. Hand on heart I don't personally go down that route, but I know a lot of people that do. Surely it's better to go down the trial and refund route where they will get the persons money if the product is worth it, rather than force people down the all too easy piracy route, where neither steam or the devs get anything from that person at all whether the product is good or not...

 

[Kenadian]

I meant no offense to you directly little P. I would hope after all these years you would know that.

I'm not bent out of shape about this as you indicate. Yes I am passionate about this topic because I think it's silly to expect someone to pay for someone else's mistakes.

...but point taken so I'll bow out.

It sure would have been nice though if you actually contacted me via PM if you'd felt this way. I'm not perfect and never claimed anywhere near it but I never would have thought I'd be seen as a dick for speaking my mind.

I'm a bit shocked to be honest given the truck loads of abuse I take from you guys on a regular basis.

 

[Solo4114]

No it's really not actually. You're turning a content delivery service into a game demo service.

Most games don't offer demos these days because I'm sure somewhere some number cruncher knows how much they stand to lose from their bottom line based off the inferior product they're trying to peddle.

Right.

And the Steam system -- as explicitly stated in the terms of their refund service -- is designed to give the consumer a weapon with which to fight back against inferior product. If you buy a game and you don't like it, their explicit terms of service state that you can return it.

I agree they could certainly be more clear on their terms but as for the argument that you should be able to return 10% of what you purchase, we'll never see eye to eye.

I have no idea what proportion of your games you should or shouldn't be able to return. Personally, I think you should be able to return any game that didn't satisfy you, if you're within the specified window. I have exactly zero sympathy for the developers who push out shit games and expect players who get duped to fund them. Fuck those guys.

The difficulty comes into play when Steam introduces the concept of "abuse." How exactly is "abuse" to be determined? Their explicit terms say you aren't supposed to be "getting free games." But if you're limited to two hours and 14 days after the fact, I fail to see how that equals a "free game." That's a demo. And Steam effectively volunteered to make ALL games have demos. Those developers and publishers who don't like this are free to sell their games through other distributors, and there are plenty from which to choose. But Steam's move is designed to engender customer loyalty, and that means Steam has clout in the marketplace, which means developers will likely choose to stay.

All in all, I think this is a good thing for all involved. Poor developers will be weeded out over time. Good developers will stick around. Gamers will stick around, too, because they'll know that they won't end up screwed and stuck with a shitty game (unless they take too long to give it a try, which has happened to me, FYI). And Steam will continue to thrive because they'll have both the gamers and the developers.



Part of what I think sticks in your craw, I'm guessing, is that you're looking at this the way brick-and-mortar vendors function. For them, there's a legitimate cost and risk in restocking returned goods. It's hard to resell a sweater that's been through someone's wash already. People can damage the packaging, or eat half the candy bar, or whatever. In those circumstances, the vendor has to eat the cost if they honor the return.

But that's not what's happening here. We're dealing with digital sales. There's nothing to "restock," no risk of "damage" to the software, and in fact there's no physical "return." Steam simply removes the license code from your library, which deletes the downloaded data. You literally have no way to continue playing the game after you return it.

If the concern is that people will use this system to "steal" games, then maybe tighten up the window for returns. Make it a 1 hour limit, if you're worried. Although, realistically, I think 2 hours is entirely appropriate. If the concern is someone working out how to pirate the game from Steam itself and keep it after it's "returned," that's a different issue. I'm unaware of how that would work, though, so I assume the risk is low.

 

[Shilka]

The whole return policy might have something to do with european consumer law as well btw.

By law in Europe (since june 2014) you can return any online ordered goods within 14 days (except for food etc) for any reason. You don't have the right to use the goods for 14 days, but you have the right to 'examine the goods'. For games this would include playing them for a short period I suppose, as there is no other way to 'examine the goods' when it comes to games.

Wouldn't be surprised at all that the whole steam return policy is a result of this relatively young law.

 

[little P]

It's ok Duke really. Just I know you'd tell me the same thing if it was the other way round and friends should be able to do that, thanks for the apology and on TS and it is graciously accepted. Shilka is absolutely on the money and that was what I was referring to in my previous post. I agree with Solo's point too that it will, hopefully, stop the tirade of shiteware that gets released and empowers the consumer which is the way it should be.

 

[little P]

It sure would have been nice though if you actually contacted me via PM if you'd felt this way. I'm not perfect and never claimed anywhere near it but I never would have thought I'd be seen as a dick for speaking my mind.

I'm a bit shocked to be honest given the truck loads of abuse I take from you guys on a regular basis.

I've just seen this edit. I'll pm you in future if you want but I'd be happy if it was the other way round, in fact I'd expect it! But that's just me and I take on board fully your feelings about it. As friends we should be able to do that and move on. Being a dick in my vocabulary doesn't mean anything more than being a bit daft, that needs to be clarified I think, it's how we speak in my world, and as you know I don't have an internet persona, I am who I am here and off internet, maybe that's something I need to look at considering the multi national nature of the place, I dunno. I also apologize (like you did and should be acknowledged btw!) if you took offence to that bud. Being a dick isn't the worst thing in the world. It's better than being a pussy

Let's just forget it and agree to disagree on the Steam refund thing, I'm sorry I brought it up lol And re: the truck load of abuse, it's always been banter, but personally I'm going to dial it down a bit and wanted to say that publicly. We all appreciate what you do, and it's great fun playing games with you when the timezones allow it, but maybe the bant has got a bit much lately from all sides, so like I say I'll be dialing it down from now on out of respect for you and friendship

Manhugs.

Now get your ass to mars and let's play some GTA this weekend

 

[Solo4114]

Wait, GTA has a mars mod now?!

(yes, I know, not really, and I do recognize the quote)

 

[ElektroVodka]

Meh Duke and P are merely building up tension, once it's high enough they have a make up shag and we start from scratch again.