Why is it...

...that "sim" games feel the need to have a bajillion controls and NOT teach you how to freaking use them?

I finally downloaded Arma2, fired it up, logged in for basic training, and they don't even tell me how the hell to do what it is I want to do. "Go pick up the pistol." Great. How the hell do I pick up the pistol? I'm left to figure that out for myself.

Stuff like this is pointless. There's no need to make the game intentionally opaque. I've played ArmA2 for 15 min and I'm already annoyed with the game. I hope DayZ is different. hell, I hope ArmA2 actually isn't as idiotic about having to learn to play it as it seems in the first 15 min. Why do games like this always seem to have such crappy tutorials? You make a sim game, make it in-depth and complex and whatnot, great. Don't expect people to learn it by fucking osmosis.
 

LeJerk

Core
I'm trying the ARMA 3 Alpha Lite and having the same problems. Having to go all the way into the control mapping screen every time is tedious.
 
Yeah, I'm barely getting the hang of it. I completed basic training, which gives me a vague sense of how to play, but so far I'm not all that impressed with the game. It's ugly as sin, too. I get that it's an older game, but still. And the animations all seem very...herky-jerky and clunky, I guess. I'm still trying to figure out how to move quickly without my weapon disappearing. Maybe I'll find some mods that improve things.

The tutorial sucks ass, though. I have to say, I'm really working off of a body of knowledge of other shooters to guess at what keys do what. That or I'm finding myself like LeJerk and going back to the command menu constantly. I'm not even sure what half the commands are for, but maybe that's made clearer in the rest of the game. So far, it seems needlessly complex, but maybe there's a real reason for it that'll make itself clear to me later.
 

Wotan

Hardcore
Looks like you guys need to join a 332viking bootcamp then. Tuesday 20 CET :). Maybe we can do a more timezone friendly event on a Saturday.
 

Kenadian

Staff member
Site Admin
You know that you could easily hit Escape and look at the control options right? In fact, it would have taken far less time than raging about it here d00d.

There's also plenty of information available online just by doing a quick Google Search:

http://dslyecxi.com/arma-3/arma3-alpha-controls/

[video=youtube;Vq7FRk2uPgo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vq7FRk2uPgo[/video]

BIS is not a Game Developer and this is not their core business. Their first priority is creating Military Simulations used around the world in training Military. That's why there are so many controls and also a good reason why there not explained as you'd spend days in tutorials and complain about never playing the game.

This is an unrestricted Sandbox SIM for lack of a better word, not an FPS so there made completely different. I've yet to see that many sims actually explain the control structure prior to hopping into the game.
 

LeJerk

Core
Apparently a "simulation" game is supposed to look like crap, have clunky handling, and a massive learning curve.

>Viper Actual Out
 
You know that you could easily hit Escape and look at the control options right? In fact, it would have taken far less time than raging about it here d00d.
I did, actually (in ArmA2). It still was pretty clunky. I got the hang of some stuff, but I'm still not all that impressed with it as a game. I'm hoping it's actually a good platform from which others build more fun gaming.

BIS is not a Game Developer and this is not their core business. Their first priority is creating Military Simulations used around the world in training Military. That's why there are so many controls and also a good reason why there not explained as you'd spend days in tutorials and complain about never playing the game.

This is an unrestricted Sandbox SIM for lack of a better word, not an FPS so there made completely different. I've yet to see that many sims actually explain the control structure prior to hopping into the game.
Ok, two thoughts on this.

First, I don't care that they develop super-intelligent robot killing machines for militaries and mad scientists across the world. They sold ME a game. And so far, at least in terms of the "straight out of the box" stuff, it's a pretty clunky game. If they sold me a military sim and said "Look, this is used by the USMC to teach things like tactics and command as part of OCS. If you want to pay us $20 to support development, you can have a civilian version of it. But don't think of it as a game. Think of it as a tool," that'd be one thing. But it's clearly sold as a game. You sell me a product, it should do what it says on the tin, no?

Second, sims that I've played offer a range of experiences. Some walk you through training with the interface in a more obvious, natural way. Others just give you the sim and let you look at a manual to figure stuff out. Back in the day when we used to get actual physical manuals and keyboard quick-guides, this wasn't a problem. Without manuals, though, you have to teach yourself using the control menu.

Related to this, I think, is the perception that for a game to be a sim, it has to have a byzantine interface. There have to be multiple keys and combinations of keys to make it truly "simmy." This is, quite frankly, a load of shit. With modern technology, games can be a LOT more seamless in terms of the control scheme. You can still hit people with a range of things to manage that make the game more realistic (e.g. real-world ballistics, environmental effects, avatar stamina, etc.), but that doesn't mean that the user's interface with the game itself has to be complex.

I mean, take IL-2. Admittedly, I haven't spent a ton of time playing it, but while it was difficult to get the hang of the controls in terms of getting my plane to do what I wanted it to do -- as well as learning the limits of the plane itself -- the interface itself was pretty straightforward. ArmA2 seems to be needlessly complex, like the stuff I've read about Derek Smart's Battlecruiser games -- loads of menus and commands, but to what end?

I'm still giving it a chance, recognizing that it takes time to learn this stuff, and hoping that as I work past the interface gremlins, I'll see a better game that lies beneath, but this has gotten me thinking about the decline of sim games, and attitudes about WHY sim games are complex, particularly when we're talking about infantry stuff.

I could understand it if, for example, the flight portion or armor portion of the game was highly complex to simulate the myriad controls you need to manage when using such equipment. But for infantry controls, there's just no reason to make it all that complex. Just because you have 108 keys on a keyboard doesn't mean you have to create a function for each of 'em.

As for why I'm spending my time writing this instead of opening menus to figure out controls, that's easy. (1) I'm busy downloading one of the add-on packs at the moment, and (2) it's Saturday, I'm chilling at home, and I'm procrastinating about doing the vacuuming. :)
 
thats too much writing for me to try and read with a screaming baby on my shoulder.

If you havent yet, download DayZ commander, install the ARMA2 thing on it, DayZ and then the Taviana.com map. maybe the whle zombie - find loot and survival thing will be the thing to keep you entertained...its the only thing keeping me sane with ARMA2...I MUCH prefer WarZ....its definatly user friendly, but no-one is playing it because of the hackers.
 

Kenadian

Staff member
Site Admin
lol LJ, if it's so bad then why did you want Johnny's copy?

...

Fuck solo you haven't changed a bit, you still are in desperate need of either a hug or a good lay, I don't know which :lol:

Get on TS with some of us and we'll talk you through it. Yes the controls can be a bit daunting but just even an ounce or so of patience will go a long way.
 
thats too much writing for me to try and read with a screaming baby on my shoulder.

If you havent yet, download DayZ commander, install the ARMA2 thing on it, DayZ and then the Taviana.com map. maybe the whle zombie - find loot and survival thing will be the thing to keep you entertained...its the only thing keeping me sane with ARMA2...I MUCH prefer WarZ....its definatly user friendly, but no-one is playing it because of the hackers.
I'm gonna definitely check out DayZ. I really like the idea of the game, particularly teaming up with you guys.

lol LJ, if it's so bad then why did you want Johnny's copy?

...

Fuck solo you haven't changed a bit, you still are in desperate need of either a hug or a good lay, I don't know which :lol:

Get on TS with some of us and we'll talk you through it. Yes the controls can be a bit daunting but just even an ounce or so of patience will go a long way.
I stuck with it some more, and the infantry controls are starting to make more sense. I think the issue was that Basic Training was actually clunkier than just getting into the game, which strikes me as odd, but whatever.

As for me being a curmudgeon, I probably come across as crankier in my writing, simply because I write a lot. But I'm not really cranky. Just long-winded. :)
 

LeJerk

Core
lol LJ, if it's so bad then why did you want Johnny's copy?
I wanted it before I played it. It's really too bad they don't let people try out games before they buy them anymore. I'm glad I demo'd this one. Also, the new SimCity (which I didn't buy and there isn't a demo) LOL.
 

little P

Super Mod
I must say I felt the same after playing with Duke et al the first time. So much so that it turned me away from it for a long time.
But... I re-installed everything and decided to have another go. Quick silver and a couple of other guys were on and really helped me figure everything out in a matter of seconds, rather than slogging through the SP portion and it's tutorial. I really feel your pain there, it seemed they wanted to fill all the keys of the keyboard with a function, including shift, alt and control modifiers of every key!

But time spent with others in Teamspeak was worth hours on my own trying to figure it out... I just wish I had more time to play! :( Because once it clicks I found it's pretty immersive.
 
I must say I felt the same after playing with Duke et al the first time. So much so that it turned me away from it for a long time.
But... I re-installed everything and decided to have another go. Quick silver and a couple of other guys were on and really helped me figure everything out in a matter of seconds, rather than slogging through the SP portion and it's tutorial. I really feel your pain there, it seemed they wanted to fill all the keys of the keyboard with a function, including shift, alt and control modifiers of every key!

But time spent with others in Teamspeak was worth hours on my own trying to figure it out... I just wish I had more time to play! :( Because once it clicks I found it's pretty immersive.
Good to know. I recognize the potential for a game like this, particularly since I loved the semi-realistic ballistics and other aspects of Red Orchestra: Ostfront (not so much the 2nd game, though...). But yeah, it seems like "Hmm...what can we make CTRL + L.Shift x2 + Q bind to...?" was a common question in design meetings for this game. :p
 

little P

Super Mod
I played Arma 3 with Duke last night (legend) and it was bloody good! I'm going shopping for pc components this week lol
 

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